The AdopTwins

1-800-ADOPT-A-KID

• Meg Cee & Billy Baraw • Season 1 • Episode 10

Share episode

What if the family you grew up with isn't the family you started with? We wrap up our first season by unpacking our personal experiences as adoptees, reflecting on the journey of finding identity and acceptance within adoptive families. As a transracial adoptees, Meg has felt the impact of societal challenges like racism, especially in light of recent global events. Our candid insights offer a fresh perspective on the intricacies of heritage and belonging, while exploring the fears and complexities of raising children in today's world.

There's a hot debate simmering around Safe Haven Baby Boxes and their role in the adoption landscape. Join us as we tackle the ethical dilemmas and psychological implications these boxes present. Are they truly a solution for desperate parents, or do they merely paper over systemic cracks? We examine the disparity in practices across states and the broader societal priorities at play, calling for more robust support systems and legislative reforms to protect vulnerable women and children.

Lastly, we delve into the troubling legislative oversights that impact international adoptees and their citizenship status. With poignant stories and a dash of humor, we highlight the urgent need for change, advocating for the rights of all adoptees. As we look toward the next season, we tease the intriguing topic of adult adoption, promising more thought-provoking conversations. Thank you for joining us this season, and we invite you to continue this journey with us, sharing "The AdopTwins" with those who might find a home in our stories.

https://www.adopteesforjustice.org/adoptee-citizenship-act

Send us a text

Support the show

Meg:

Hi, this is Meg.

Billy:

And this is Billy.

Meg:

And we are.

Billy:

The Adopt Twins.

Meg:

Meg and this is Billy, and we are the Adopt Twin Welcome to a podcast from two adoptees who are navigating life loss, moving on and growing up.

Billy:

For our adopted friends we hope to bring you a familiar point of view and for our friends who aren't welcome to the complicated jungle of how we get on.

Meg:

Thi is our final episode of our first season.

Billy:

ey, it's taken time and it's took a lot of introspection and a lot of tears, but a lot of joy, a lot of laughs, but we're here we are.

Meg:

e decided that we will end each season with an episode about how we feel about adoption at this time, because, as we grow, as we learn, as we talk to all of you, as things change in the world, our feelings will change, because the world is fluid. So I think it's a good idea to check in with each other, and hopefully with you all through the comments, about how we feel about adoption at this time in our lives.

Billy:

Yeah.

Meg:

Some adoptees have had really bad experiences with their adoptive families

Billy:

Right

Meg:

nd they don't feel like those are their real parents because it's been such a bad experience for them. Another adoptee says that no, she's wrong, they are real parents. I can see where they could get triggered by that.

Billy:

Yeah, I could see that I mean when I bring up that I'm adopted, eventually at some point in a conversation, people have a hard time just referencing my parents as my parents. I don't know if you've experienced that.

Meg:

Oh yeah

Billy:

, hey're just like so you're, you're fake pet or you're what do you call the people you grew up with? It's like they're my parents. It was like, well, what about the? It wa like the other. I'm like I don't know the other people. So they're biological family, I guess, I could say, but I don't know them. So my parents are my parents. That's just flat out straight up for me. Somebody who's my age, who was raised from their biological parents, and how my family raised me.

Meg:

I mean, I feel like my adoptive parents didn't raise me differently. I don't know, to be honest, I don't think they did, but I do consider them my adoptive parents. That may be because I'm transracial. So once I realized that I wasn't white, which at some point in my life, I don't know why I just always considered myself white. Obviously, I knew that I was from Korea, which is an Asian country and everything, but it was just so ingrained in me, the whole whiteness, that I just didn't consider myself anything but white.

Billy:

How long was that?

Meg:

Oh, probably until. Probably until about 2020.

Billy:

Gotcha

Meg:

, eah. So it really hit me during COVID when the racism got really bad again. I mean, I've always faced racism, but it got a lot worse during 2020.

Billy:

Yeah, and it's still continuing to.

Meg:

I think a big part of why I started recognizing and claiming my Asian heritage is because I have a child now,

Billy:

ight

Meg:

and he is half Korean and it's something that he's going to face, and so I think that's what kind of woke me up to it when the racism kicked up really bad in 2020.

Billy:

Yeah. Does he know that there's probable adversity he's going to face at this point in his life or?

Meg:

Yeah, I don't hide things from him. I try not to say it in a scary way and in a way that's over his head. But I was having a really, really difficult time at one point and I was really upset a lot and I was taking it out on everybody around me, which he's around me a lot, and I felt really, really bad. So I told him. I said hey, kiddo, I want to tell you why I've been so upset. And I said there are some people who are making really bad choices and hurting Asian women. So it has me really, really scared. Do you know why? And he said well, you're Asian. And I said that's right, I am. And he said and he said well, you're Asian, and I said that's right, I am. And he said and you're a woman? And I said that's right, I am. So that's why I've been really, really scared, and so I don't tell him that they're killing people.

Billy:

He understands that it's something you are affected by and people are doing bad things, right. And then the news gaslights you, right, which is even more infuriating. Well, you know, it could have been a personal thing. What are you talking about? No, some people just like to shoot sometimes. I'm still never going to forgive the blatant, malicious, feigned ignorance of some of the Supreme Court justices for having justification of oh, everything will be all right, just adopt Facebook handed over messenger records in Nebraska to the police to prove that a teenager and their mother were chatting and then going to get an abortion.

Meg:

So what kind of world are we living in right now?

Billy:

How are you not screaming at the top of your lungs, being like, hey, guess what? This is horrifying.

Meg:

Yeah, I am so scared for my child to grow up in this world right now.

Billy:

Yeah, I mean, I think every parent is terrified of their child to grow up in every time period, but it just seems that there are definitely some aspects of the trajectory we were going in which is just what are we doing, guys?

Meg:

I know what's the reason?

Billy:

Did the populace really make the rich that angry that they're just like, oh, got to tighten up this leash because we can't have you running out into the road, or we know what's good for you, or yada, yada, yada.

Meg:

I mean I honestly would, if I was not a mother, work on trying to move out of this country. And If I was not a mother, work on trying to move out of this country, and honestly, if I didn't have to deal with his father, I would, even with my child, try to work on moving out of this country. But just trying to do that with his father would just be such such a thing. So, but I always want to do what's best for my child and I honestly feel like best for my child right now is to not have them grow up in this country, and that is a terrible thing.

Billy:

But it doesn't make it any less true. That's where we are listeners. At the end of season one, meg would love to flee the country. That's what we were all looking forward to as we graduated high school and pledged allegiance to the flag. They're like ah, everything's going to be great, smash cut. I can't leave, but for reasons that are totally justifiable, I need to get out of here with my family.

Meg:

It is the handmaid's tale.

Billy:

It's the frog that is slowly boiling in water. They just keep turning up the temperature, little by little.

Meg:

The baby boxes.

Meg:

So, that is something that's been going on in Korea for quite some time ow. They've passed a law in Korea that the mothers have to register the child on their family registry so that the children can get information and they can't be left, like me, with nothing, which is absolutely amazing that that got passed. Adoptees went and really advocated for that in Korea, so it's a very, very amazing thing. But there is a church who has this baby box and they offer a place to put the information, but the mother or whoever leaves the child doesn't have to leave information and it's kind of this, this gray area, and it's still going on and hasn't been shut down yet. But apparently I've read that baby boxes are starting to pop up in the US.

Billy:

What

Meg:

, eah, yeah.

Billy:

Oh, that's going to keep happening. Oh man, of course that's going to keep happening. You take away people's rights to choose. Well, it's just going to create a more influx of unwanted oh my yeah. Yeah

Meg:

, ost-roe conservatives promote way to give up newborns. The havens can be boxes which allow parents to avoid speaking to anyone or even being seen when surrendering their babies.

Billy:

So now I'm even more mad. Are you kidding me?

Meg:

The safe haven baby box at a firehouse in Carmel, indiana, looked like a library book drop. It had been available for three years for anyone who wanted to surrender a baby anonymously. No one had ever used it, though, until early April when its alarm went off. Victor Andres, a firefighter, opened the box and found, to his disbelief, a newborn boy wrapped in towels. This article was from August 6, 2022, and it was in the New York Times. The discovery made the local TV news, which praised the courage of the mother, calling it a time for celebration. Later that month, mr Andres pulled another newborn, a girl from the box. In May, a third baby appeared. By summer, three more infants were left at the baby box locations throughout the state.

Meg:

The baby boxes are part of the Safe Haven movement, which has long been closely tied to anti-abortion activism. Safe Havens offer desperate mothers a way to surrender their newborn babies anonymously for adoption, and advocates say avoid hurting, abandoning or even killing them. The havens can be boxes which allow parents to avoid speaking to anyone or even being seen when surrendering their babies. More traditionally, the havens are locations such as hospitals and fire stations, where staff members are trained to accept a face-to-face handoff from a parent in crisis. All 50 states have safe haven laws meant to protect surrendering mothers from criminal charges. The first, known as the Baby Moses Law, was passed in Texas in 1999 after a number of women abandoned infants in trash cans and dumpsters. But what became as a way to prevent the most extreme cases of child abuse has become a broader phenomenon, supported especially among the religious right.

Billy:

Let's get them in. We got numbers dwindling. How can we get some more people into parish?

Meg:

The thing is that the top adoption agencies in the US, I believe, if I remember correctly from another article I read are tied to religious organizations and they're not non-profit.

Billy:

Right, they've got a fee there.

Meg:

Over the past five years, more than 12 states have passed laws allowing baby boxes or expanding safe haven options in other ways.

Billy:

I feel like there's a way that if a mother had a chance to choose earlier regarding the future of a potential life, maybe we wouldn't be needing baby boxes as much. I mean, it might be a relic of a bygone age to give somebody that choice. I'm going to have to go to Indiana and get a picture next to a baby box.

Meg:

Yeah, I mean, you know, I guess it's better than being left just on the street behind a marketplace.

Billy:

Sure, maybe I don't know.

Meg:

I guess, as long as somebody's making sure to come and check the box, because at least at the marketplace maybe someone would give me food.

Billy:

What if the buzzer stops working? What if the buzzer stops working. What if the buzzer stops?

Meg:

Wbatteries in the buzzer.

Billy:

h boy, it was a hot one. Sorry, baby, unfortunately it didn't make it this time, but we'll make sure to put the double a's back in the buzzer. Oh my god.

Meg:

During oral arguments in the case Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health Organization, justice Amy Coney Barrett suggested that safe haven laws offered an alternative to abortion by allowing women to avoid the burdens of parenting. In the court's decision, justice Samuel Alito Jr cited safe haven laws as a modern development.

Billy:

Modern development. ou say why are we listening to any of these people?

Meg:

For many experts in adoption and women's health, safe havens are hardly. Oh my no, I don't know this word. P-a-n-a-c-e -A. English is my second language.

Billy:

Oh, panacea, the solution or remedy for all difficulties and diseases. You mean, you know, like snake oil. It's named after the Greek goddess of universal remedy. Panacea is any supposed remedy that is claimed to cure all diseases and prolong life indefinitely.

Meg:

Okay, so let's try using it in a sentence. But for many experts in adoption and women's health, safe havens are hardly a panacea. To them, a safe haven surrender is a sign that a woman fell through the cracks of existing systems.

Billy:

Fund the systems.

Meg:

Yeah, yeah.

Billy:

h my god.

Meg:

They may have concealed their pregnancies and given birth without prenatal care, or they may suffer from domestic violence, drug addiction, homelessness or mental illness. You cannot just put Band-Aids over the problems. You need to go to the root causes and fix the root causes.

Billy:

Can't just put a baby box up everywhere and then blame the system. So my question is what happens to the kids after this? They get put in a baby box. What happens?

Meg:

The next paragraph says the adoptions themselves could also be problematic, with women potentially unaware that they are terminating paternal rights and children left with little information about their origins.

Billy:

That's not going to come back and send somebody to the psych ward in middle school or anything to the psych ward in middle school or anything. Also, that's not going to cause a severe amount of resentment. I mean even like, if you're the best adoptive parents and everything was right, you learn of a trauma that hard. There's no coming back Lke you can be, like, well, maybe a little bit of love will fix you. And then as a child you would say, well, maybe a little bit of go F yourself is what you deserve, what the world deserves. I want to watch it burn, but I'll probably just inflict the damage onto myself because I am not wanted here Apparently. Okay, so that's cool. You said you want to leave this country. Yeah, I'm not quite sure if they'll let you when they close the borders.

Meg:

Go There's more than 100 baby boxes across the country.

Billy:

God.

Meg:

Ms Kelsey is a former medic and firefighter and an adoptee who says she was abandoned at birth by her teenage mother, who had been raped. She first encountered a baby safe a concept dating back to medieval Europe on a 2013 trip to a church in Cape Town, south Africa, where she was on a pro-abstinence speaking tour. She returned home to Indiana to find a non-profit Safe Haven Baby Boxes and installed her first baby box in 2016. At Safe Haven Baby Boxes and installed her first baby box in 201 To use one of Ms Kelsey's boxes, a parent pulls open a metal drawer to reveal a temperature-controlled hospital bassinet. Once the baby is inside and the drawer is closed, it locks automatically. The parent cannot reopen it, an alarm is triggered and the facility's staff member can access the bassinet. The box also sends out a 911 call. 21 babies have been left in the box since 2017. The average amount of time a child is inside the box is less than two minutes.

Billy:

Yeah, that's enough. That's enough to cause all kinds of long-lasting effects psychologically. Oh my God.

Meg:

Oh, she's raised money to put up dozens of billboards advertising and predicted that within five years her boxes would be in all 50 states. In California, unlike in Indiana, safe haven surrenders must be done face-to-face and parents are given an optional questionnaire on medical history.

Billy:

We have the world's smartest scientists, we have some of the most opulent cultural centers and we're going to put a kid in a box and close the box. And that's a growing movement.

Meg:

Because these relinquishments are anonymous, they typically lead to closed adoptions. Birth parents are unable to select the parents and adoptees are left with little to no information about their family of origin or medical history. Hmm, r Hanlon of the National Council for Adoption pointed to research showing that, over the long term, birth parents feel more satisfied about giving up their children if biological and adoptive families maintain a relationship. How do the children feel, I wonder?

Billy:

Oh, they don't matter. I mean, we've already. We've already figured out that they're just. hey're little ornaments to be put on a baby box tree. You know what I mean?

Meg:

Yeah.

Billy:

Who's going to pick this one out? It's a baby. Oh, sorry, I was talking to myself. Yeah, there's nobody here to pick up these kids. Okay, cool, o, like what do they do? Do they have a Facebook? Do they have a baby box Facebook group where it's just like take a look at this little pupper doodle. We call him Charlie, but you can name him whatever. Come on down to the firehouse, just pick up a kid. Do you have an extra 80 gram? We don't know if it has its shot. Here at Religious Company, we value life and what we want most importantly is to give you the chance of having life now, as you know, there are an equal a number of people who are looking to adopt because biologically they can't have children, as there are two unwanted children. Don't check that source. So everything is provided for, everything works out and everybody lives happily ever after. Excuse me, I have a few follow-up questions. No, thank you. Just one follow-up question, not today.

Meg:

How about I send you the list of questions? Will

Billy:

you get back to m Actually really busy trying to find parents for these children.

Meg:

But I thought you said the parents were ready and willing.

Billy:

What's that now? Oh my gosh, it's time to pray. Goodbye everybody. Se, these kids will learn to read.

Meg:

So how many baby boxes do you got there?

Billy:

h let me do a little Google right there. ere let's see how many baby boxes are in Chicago. The first thing is a news story that just said somebody placed six babies in a baby box.

Meg:

Oh dear.

Billy:

hat seems like too many. All right, let's see. In Chicago proper we are looking. Sorry, I'm scrolling through the 115 in Indiana.

Meg:

Oh dear.

Billy:

o no, that's just what the box number is. Sorry, that's sorry, that was misrepresentative.

Meg:

Oh, the boxes are numbered.

Billy:

eah, so let's see here.

Meg:

If you go to one and it's full, they tell you the next number, so you know where to go.

Billy:

Right, Exactly If Sharerville, Indiana, box 66 is full, go down to Huntington. According to BB, Stop it. The website's literally SHBB, which just say it as it is Shh BB, Shh. Let's get you in that box. Baby Shh BB, Baby Shh BB. There is no location in Illinois, let alone Chicago, but that's just according to this one place. I'm going to go sit in a baby box. I don't care if the police get called. I'm going to go sit in a baby bo. I don't care if the police get called. I'm going to go sit in that bassine and be like is this okay? . Okay, limb in with a pacifier and a bonnet.

Meg:

We're just doing research, doing research.

Billy:

Hey, it's just a prank, bro, it's just a social experiment.

Meg:

I was reading one article and some parents were leaving comments like is there one that fits a teenager?

Billy:

Brilliant.

Meg:

Things like that. And honestly, I just had to laugh at that, because parenting teenagers, I know, is hard, because I was a horrible person when I was a teenager.

Billy:

Yeah, I was pretty rough too. I like the idea, though, that the child in question, the teenager in question, is an adoptee and also read that comment andn kit'\s exactly. It's their parents who said it. I'm never going back in the box. Don't you shut baby me, becaus you imagine you open up the box. It's like is the baby crying too much? Here's a little baby Benadryl. Crush it up, put it in the bottle.

Meg:

The Adoption Citizenship Act. Hopefully that is something that can pass, because every adoptee to America should have American citizenship.

Billy:

Without a doubt, they're not making a choice

Meg:

ight

Billy:

, hey're being born, they're being put in a baby box in some cases, and then finding themselves, after multiple traumas, in the hands of a new family with uncertain futures

Meg:

I guess you can say o to have then some of these people get deported back to their home countries, to places that they don't know, where they don't know anyone, where they don't speak the language, and they may have families back here with like husbands or wives with children. It's absolutely appalling.

Billy:

It's unconscionable for a civilized society. I don't know if you know this, but America is pretty big land, wise, and people keep building places to live higher and higher. We've got a lot of ceiling before we start like suffocating because there's no air. So we have the capabilities of being decent and I just don't understand where the roadblock is. How is this not a given? Parties are tying it to the idea that all quote unquote illegals are bad?

Meg:

It is in a bill currently, but at this time a lot of people are like, oh no, but that all got fixed in 2000. And for most people it did. All new international adoptees they do become citizens. All adoptees that were under the age of 18 when this passed they became citizens. But anyone that was over the age of 18 on that date that this went into effect did not automatically become citizens. So there's this gap of people that we need to help. Senators and representatives have signed on to co-sign, but there are many that haven't and unfortunately I check often and all of them in Connecticut are not co-signers.

Billy:

Murphy's not a co-signer?

Meg:

Rosa DeLauro, who is all about family. Like it's appalling to me.

Billy:

So call your representatives everybody.

Meg:

Yeah, please.

Billy:

Come on. Hey, could you do your job and be people? BI'm lazy. No, yeah, okay, wow.

Meg:

You can't make a scene about kids being in cages, you can't make a scene about universal child care, but then send these people, who had no choice but to come here, back to their home country where they know nobody, where they can't speak the language.

Billy:

So are these people that were adopted into families?

Billy:

Really? So? t's not just people who were just left in the system or somehow got back into the system.

Meg:

All of them would have been adopted into families, which is how they got over here and then they stayed with that family. Maybe the family decided they didn't want to continue taking care of the child and put them in the system here in the States. It all depends, but they just, for whatever reason, the families did not get them citizenship. It's really clos

Billy:

Oh my God, let's get that passed. That's an easy one.

Meg:

hould be.

Billy:

That's the easiest one. Don't attach it to anything, just do it.

Meg:

Yeah Well, it's failed many times.

Billy:

Well, it's just crazy too. There's like a friend of mine who I don't know if this person was put into a baby box. I do know the person is in jail for reasons that people go to jail for. I know that they were abusive. I never met the person, but the people I know adopted them from seeing them on TV.

Meg:

Wait, what?

Billy:

Iaccess things. But they were just like, hey, you know how some people need a puppy. What about taking a kid? Look at this one here. This little dander is playing a little bit of the piano and don't you just want to bring him into your home. And my friend's family said, yeah, let's do it. And-

Meg:

hat?

Billy:

Yeah, this is a thing that happened.

Meg:

In Connecticut?

Billy:

in the Northeast. It was like 30 years ago now, I guess. Like I remember hearing the story that, yeah, the reason that they were brought into our family is because we saw them on TV. Family unit was strong, but they wanted to help. This was a call on TV to adopt some kids. Look at how talented Dance. If you don't play the piano good enough, no one will ever love you.

Billy:

Could you imagine a child that's coming from the system that is then thrust in front of a camera crew, maybe a live studio audience with who knows on a microphone and being like here's your shot, bud, don't mess it up.

Meg:

No

Billy:

and things did not

Meg:

turn

Billy:

t did not end well. There's so much going backwards. Well, I guess it's not going backwards, it's just going in a worse direction because there are still some bastions of hope.

Billy:

But I mean, if the baby box movement is getting going... as we wrap up this season, I'm worried that with all the new unwanted kids that'll be put in baby boxes, there's going to be a rise of cults. Like just imagine you have, from the moment you're born, being told you would not be here if it wasn't for us, in the most toxic way, if not for us. And I know that there's some families that probably have expressed that sentiment to their child. I feel, fortunate enough, that I haven't really met too many personal friends who are adopted, who families have literally put that energy out there. But oh my gosh, you get other stuff too. You get the chosen, sort of not fantasy, but you're sort of ingrained that you've been chosen to be where you are

Meg:

Right

Billy:

nd so you are indebted to that community because otherwise you would have.

Meg:

Oh gosh, is that why I moved back here?

Billy:

To Connecticut, to your hometown. I think you're just a glutton for punishment.

Meg:

I probably am. Or I just am so messed up from all of my trauma and I could have this house. So I did, because my track record of working is not very good, so my source of income comes and goes.

Billy:

That's fair. I mean stability first right.

Meg:

Yeah, and I don't have that. My brain can't take that.

Billy:

Right, no, obviously, if you can take care of shelter, yeah, you'll deal with all the crap that comes with it. I think that you had the opportunity to get a house and you have a family, so obviously you're going to take the house.

Meg:

Yeah, the most basic is survival food, water, shelter. That's where I am.

Billy:

I mean come on, You're doing a podcast. Truly, you're a little bit beyond the very basics. We're finishing up season one, all right, so I need food, shelter, water. Podcast we're doing Maslow's Plus.

Meg:

Psychological needs. It's air check, Water check, Food check, Shelter check, Sleep.

Billy:

You should consider it.

Meg:

Clothing check Reproduction. Okay, I've done that.

Billy:

Yeah, you took care of that. You got that out of the way.

Meg:

Okay, so I guess I'm in, maybe I'm in level two Personal security. What does that mean?

Billy:

How about employment?

Meg:

Employment's the second one Personal security, employment Resources, resources of what?

Billy:

If you don't understand the definition of resources, you probably need to get some more resources.

Meg:

Health oh boy.

Billy:

ow's that going?

Meg:

And property.

Billy:

Hey, you got property right.

Meg:

I do, I do.

Billy:

You're in number two, look at you.

Meg:

Oh gosh, number three. I'm not going to get there ever.

Billy:

All right, what do we got in number three.

Meg:

Friendship

Billy:

, Uh-huh.

Meg:

ntimacy

Billy:

, oh no, kay.

Meg:

Family.

Billy:

ou got one of those.

Meg:

I have a child.

Billy:

Yeah, that's kind of like a family.

Meg:

And sense of connection hat one is called love and belonging.

Billy:

Hey, one out of four.

Meg:

Oh gosh. Then there's esteem and self-actualization are the last two levels up.

Billy:

Let's

Meg:

see do you have respect or myself or do other people have respect for me?

Billy:

r maybe just respect for your elders. Maybe that's what it means. If you have to think about it, the answer is no. So how about? How about self-esteem? Do you listen to the offspring song, self-esteem? Do you listen to the Offspring song, self-estee

Meg:

and still say yeah, eah.

Billy:

Yep, all right, okay, cross that off the list. How about status within your community? How's that going?

Meg:

That's an issue.

Billy:

All right. Status and recognition. I acknowledge you. You put this podcast together with a plomb and vigor, so I recognize, and you're also a single mother that is also trying to change the world, so you got recognition on that and this podcast will help with that a lot.

Meg:

Thank you

Billy:

, elcome, oof Strength though.

Meg:

Strength of what?

Billy:

I don't know how much can you bench?

Meg:

I'd have to go to a gym first.

Billy:

, kay. All right. All right, have you heard of the term push up?

Meg:

What.

Billy:

ave you heard of the term push up?

Meg:

What.

Billy:

I mean? e can just fudge that a little bit. Let me just fudge that on the form real quick. Okay, very good. Freedom you want to move but you can't? Yeah, all right, then self-actualization. Who knows what that means? Anybody? Like share and subscribe, comments and deception. hat that means Desire to become the most one can be.

Meg:

I have that desire.

Billy:

yes, oh well, you have, oh man, I think Maze kind of copped out at the end. I think everybody was like getting progressively more depressed watching this pyramid be built and he's like as long as you have the desire, you're a full person, we'll just give you that. Okay, I guess things are all right.

Meg:

Where do you think you fall on that pyramid? Which level? I'm in

Billy:

, clearl I would say that essentially every single one of those I feel comfortable with saying that I have. You know, with the world going crazy, I still feel very fortunate and thankful on a micro level for my community, for my marriage, for my family. And while I don't have any grand aspirations of changing the world necessarily, currently I feel that which I'm aspiring to currently I still have the freedom to do. It's just that I keep checking in with the rest of the world and going, oh man, seriously, that's the direction we're going in. All right, I think the environment of Chicago I can't speak highly enough about the city Like Chicago itself is a cult, Like there's no other city, I believe, in the entire country that is in love with itself as much as Chicago love with itself.

Meg:

as much as Chicag I think it would be interesting to talk to some birth parents. Definitely, some of these people bother me.

Billy:

Itell. I

Meg:

tel

Meg:

Not Brad and Angelina, though

Billy:

, eah, you guys are doing great Once again. We can't wait to have you guys on the show. Yeah, we're booking for next season. I think we can squeeze you in.

Meg:

Yeah, we can work around our filming schedule because we are both actors again

Billy:

Still actors, guys, still actors looking for work. I'm sorry, I could have just, I really could have just said actors. It's a little redundant to say looking for work, right.

Meg:

We love you. If you're looking to adopt two others.

Billy:

Yeah, listen, that's for next season. Adult adoption that's our little teaser for next season. You guys want to hear about our views on adult adoption. Come on back. We got them. Well, we don't have adult adoptees, but we have opinions.

Meg:

It has been a pleasure to do this season with you. It has been a pleasure to do this season with yo

Billy:

It has been a pleasure to do this season with you as well.

Meg:

Very happy we did this, looking forward to coming back and doing this all over again for season two.

Billy:

Same.

Meg:

nd I hope all of you decide to come back with us and hear a little more about our stories and our thoughts and our opinions. And we know that the things we say may not be things that you necessarily agree with, and it's okay, because all of us have had different experiences and we can all have different ideas, as long as we all respect each other.

Billy:

Absolutely. See you later guys.

Meg:

If you liked this episode of the Adopt Twins, I urge you to pull over if you're driving, or stop what you're doing and take one minute to take out your phone and text someone you know that you think would also like the Adop Twins. Send them a text that says hey, I've been listening to this podcast and I think you'd like it. Let me know what you think and send them a link to the show. It Let me know what you think and send them a link to the show. Word of mouth is the best way to spread the hilarity of the adopt twins, so stop gatekeeping us and let someone else know We'll catch y'all soon.